[2009-08-02 09::46:58] Broca: is cooking supper right now, but will probably be done when the symposium begins.
[2009-08-02 09::47:32] saizai: what's cooking?
[2009-08-02 09::47:41] saizai: should get breakfast
[2009-08-02 09::48:44] Broca: Salmon & gnocchi.
[2009-08-02 09::49:58] saizai: oo, fancy
[2009-08-02 09::50:12] saizai: hm, I should make some of that vegan gnocchi n' cheese again
[2009-08-02 09::50:41] saizai: 
      http://www.waste.org/~oxymoron/recipes/macncheese.html
    
[2009-08-02 09::51:02] saizai: (I'm vegetarian, not vegan, but I don't have enough cheese to make a cheese sauce and it's actually pretty good)
[2009-08-02 09::51:06] Broca: *blinkblink*
[2009-08-02 09::51:09] Broca: How can you make vegan cheese?
[2009-08-02 09::51:17] saizai: well, that's an approximation
[2009-08-02 09::51:20] saizai: in flavor
[2009-08-02 09::51:32] saizai: there are much closer approximations you can get as block "cheese"
[2009-08-02 09::51:43] saizai: dunno how they make 'em, wikipedia probably does
[2009-08-02 09::52:03] saizai: psuedocheddar, psuedomozz, whatever you want
[2009-08-02 09::52:10] saizai: especially in Berkeley ;)
[2009-08-02 09::52:23] Broca: Heh.
[2009-08-02 09::52:48] saizai: psuedomeat too
[2009-08-02 09::52:53] saizai: dunno if you've had the stuff
[2009-08-02 09::53:19] Broca: I've been thinking of going vegan (or at least reducing the meat in my diet), but I haven't been able to find any source of information that would let me avoid malnutrition.
[2009-08-02 09::53:47] Slereah_: Eat more meat.
[2009-08-02 09::54:59] » guitarplayer joined the chat room.
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[2009-08-02 09::56:06] saizai: enh, eat beans and you're mostly okay
[2009-08-02 09::56:59] saizai: Alex makes sure we actually cook decent meals regularly
[2009-08-02 09::58:01] » guitarplayer is now known as carsten.
[2009-08-02 09::58:09] » carsten is now known as carstenbecker.
[2009-08-02 09::58:13] Broca: Well, that's the problem. I find beans and most other kinds of legumes profoundly yucky. I would have to be pretty starved to even consider it.
[2009-08-02 09::58:14] carstenbecker: bleh
[2009-08-02 09::58:24] carstenbecker: that's way too long either
[2009-08-02 09::58:36] » carstenbecker is now known as cbecker.
[2009-08-02 09::58:38] » You have set yourself away with "vegan cheese for breakfast".
[2009-08-02 10::03:52] » lucky joined the chat room.
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[2009-08-02 10::26:06] saizai: Broca: do you like chili?
[2009-08-02 10::27:02] Broca: I like chili the spice, but not chili the casserole (see above).
[2009-08-02 10::27:20] » jimhenry left the chat room.
[2009-08-02 10::27:54] cbecker: I like all 3 kinds of chili. the vegetable things (except when they're still green), the casserole and the spice.
[2009-08-02 10::28:11] saizai: that and tofu is how I get most of my beans
[2009-08-02 10::28:24] saizai: chili uses a lot of 'em
[2009-08-02 10::28:29] saizai: tofu is good for filler
[2009-08-02 10::28:37] cbecker: what about green beans?
[2009-08-02 10::29:03] saizai: enh, I rarely have 'em
[2009-08-02 10::29:22] cbecker: that reminds me. I wouldn't mind green bean soup next time I'm at my parents'. haven't had it in a long time
[2009-08-02 10::30:28] » wmannis joined the chat room.
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[2009-08-02 10::31:39] wmannis: Many howdies.  Can we expect Unicode to work for most people in irc these days?
[2009-08-02 10::32:00] cbecker: yes
[2009-08-02 10::32:14] cbecker: ит шуд верк
[2009-08-02 10::32:18] wmannis: καλῶς!
[2009-08-02 10::32:44] saizai: oo
[2009-08-02 10::32:47] saizai: fancy
[2009-08-02 10::33:08] cbecker: नमस्ते
[2009-08-02 10::33:29] wmannis: Next, Navajo madness: łį́į́
[2009-08-02 10::33:48] Broca: grumblegrumbleinstallskimgrumble
[2009-08-02 10::33:57] wmannis: Erm.  I hope they get precomposed accent/nasalization some day.
[2009-08-02 10::33:57] cbecker: picked the letters from the charmap
[2009-08-02 10::34:01] saizai: navajo didn't work for me
[2009-08-02 10::34:03] cbecker: hasn't yet got scim running
[2009-08-02 10::34:04] saizai: probably custom font?
[2009-08-02 10::34:10] saizai: how 'bout IPA
[2009-08-02 10::34:23] cbecker: worked for me
[2009-08-02 10::34:25] wmannis: Alas.
[2009-08-02 10::34:33] wmannis: I use Gentium.
[2009-08-02 10::34:40] wmannis: But in a unicody way.
[2009-08-02 10::34:53] cbecker: I use DejaVu Sans
[2009-08-02 10::35:48] wmannis: I find a lot of variation in how apps cope (rather, fail to cope) with combining chars.
[2009-08-02 10::38:52] Broca: [ɑi hæf zɛ skimː]
[2009-08-02 10::39:27] Broca: ♥
[2009-08-02 10::41:11] saizai: fwiw, could one of you check to see if conlang.org/chat.php java client is working?
[2009-08-02 10::41:15] saizai: I don't trust my own test
[2009-08-02 10::43:27] jimhenry1: ok will do
[2009-08-02 10::43:27] » Testink joined the chat room.
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[2009-08-02 10::43:31] jimhenry1: I am currently running Pidgin, will start chat.php in a firefox tab
[2009-08-02 10::43:50] saizai: huh, you use pidgin's IRC?
[2009-08-02 10::44:03] saizai: I only tried it once, it was a little wonky
[2009-08-02 10::44:17] Testink: Oops. When I pic the correct room, works in Safari (osx).
[2009-08-02 10::44:31] » Testink left the chat room.
[2009-08-02 10::44:42] cbecker: last time I used it it didn't support unicode
[2009-08-02 10::44:46] cbecker: iirc
[2009-08-02 10::44:54] saizai: hm, there's something there about fonts
[2009-08-02 10::45:00] saizai: I forget what
[2009-08-02 10::45:43] jimhenry1: I've never used IRC before
[2009-08-02 10::45:51] jimhenry1: pidgin is what came installed on this ubuntu box I just bought from Dell
[2009-08-02 10::46:03] jimhenry1: am willing to try others based on your or others' recommendations
[2009-08-02 10::46:14] cbecker: xchat
[2009-08-02 10::46:14] saizai: OS?
[2009-08-02 10::46:25] Broca: You bought an Ubuntu box from Dell? Awesome!
[2009-08-02 10::46:26] saizai: straight ubuntu or something else
[2009-08-02 10::46:31] jimhenry1: ok, will install that and try it before next month's conlang chat
[2009-08-02 10::46:53] saizai: generally though, definitely xchat on linux
[2009-08-02 10::47:00] saizai: make sure it's the current version though
[2009-08-02 10::47:07] saizai: older ones had serious exploits
[2009-08-02 10::47:51] cbecker: "current"
[2009-08-02 10::47:52] cbecker: ubuntu doesn't like "current"
[2009-08-02 10::48:00] cbecker: 
      
        :|
      
    
[2009-08-02 10::48:15] cbecker: it's always a hassle when updating to the new version every half year
[2009-08-02 10::48:18] jimhenry1: ubuntu 8.10 on a Dell Inspiron 15n
[2009-08-02 10::48:18] jimhenry1: see here http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1161744
[2009-08-02 10::48:18] jimhenry1: and here http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1161744&page=28
[2009-08-02 10::48:41] saizai: cbecker: *nix is always a hassle, period :p
[2009-08-02 10::48:45] cbecker: ubuntu 9.04 is the most recent version
[2009-08-02 10::48:58] saizai: it ain't exactly a low maintenance OS
[2009-08-02 10::49:00] cbecker: myeah
[2009-08-02 10::49:13] jimhenry1: btw the chat.php doesn't seem to be working for me
[2009-08-02 10::49:14] wmannis: It pays my bills.
[2009-08-02 10::49:43] saizai: jimhenry1: feh. sounds like it works erratically
[2009-08-02 10::49:45] wmannis: Wrangling Unix, that is.
[2009-08-02 10::50:02] Broca: In my experience, Unix is a drag to install and set up the first time. After that, it Just Works™.
[2009-08-02 10::50:18] jimhenry1: some people on the aforementioned Inspiron 15n thread said they had upgraded their box to 9.04; some had problems with it (I think re: power management) until tweaking, so I'm holding off a bit until I get used to Linux again
[2009-08-02 10::50:36] saizai: Broca: until you want to change or update anything ;)
[2009-08-02 10::50:42] Broca: But let's not start an OS war ...
[2009-08-02 10::50:46] jimhenry1: I used to use slackware some years ago but for several years just Win 2000 (with Emacs and Cygwin)
[2009-08-02 10::50:49] jimhenry1: now that I'm retired I can use the OS I want
[2009-08-02 10::51:15] saizai: naw, I used to use kubuntu. my production servers were redhat. I'm on osx now, and I boot into vista for games. I'm egalitarian. ;)
[2009-08-02 10::52:17] cbecker: I have XP and 7RC in virtualbox
[2009-08-02 10::52:32] cbecker: doesn't allow me to play games though
[2009-08-02 10::52:42] B-rat: i have no OS, my computer is one giant switchboard that i operate manually
[2009-08-02 10::52:43] cbecker: virtualbox doesn't support d3d yet
[2009-08-02 10::52:50] cbecker: and even aoe2 crashes :\
[2009-08-02 10::53:37] » MalfermitaKodo joined the chat room.
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[2009-08-02 10::54:04] jimhenry1: IME Linux is fun to use but a pain to install and configure
[2009-08-02 10::54:04] jimhenry1: so approximately =~ Sai
[2009-08-02 10::54:04] jimhenry1: but my previous experience was with slackware so that may not be typical
[2009-08-02 10::54:28] MalfermitaKodo: jimhenry1: slackware is as userfriendly as a rattlesnake
[2009-08-02 10::54:37] cbecker: no, ubuntu was a breeze to install
[2009-08-02 10::54:48] cbecker: I had to fight a bit with it after that though
[2009-08-02 10::55:00] MalfermitaKodo: is Mechthild BTW
[2009-08-02 10::55:09] cbecker: ohaithar
[2009-08-02 10::55:18] MalfermitaKodo: Hejida!
[2009-08-02 10::55:49] Broca: Let's have an introduction round when the meeting^Wconversation starts.
[2009-08-02 10::56:04] cbecker: at 20:00 sharp
[2009-08-02 10::56:12] cbecker: is counting seconds :O
[2009-08-02 10::56:20] saizai: I'm trying to get rawrought on
[2009-08-02 10::56:31] saizai: to quote: "I am like disfunctional with technology."
[2009-08-02 10::56:52] saizai: so... it may take a couple min, hold on. At least he's got mIRC up ;)
[2009-08-02 10::57:26] » JimViaPhp joined the chat room.
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[2009-08-02 10::58:08] MalfermitaKodo: mIRC?!
[2009-08-02 10::58:18] saizai: Windows.
[2009-08-02 10::58:28] saizai: see previous statement
[2009-08-02 10::58:39] Broca: I know people who run mIRC on Wine. :-)
[2009-08-02 10::58:51] JimViaPhp: this is Jim Henry again via conlang.org/chat.php
[2009-08-02 10::58:51] JimViaPhp: testing
[2009-08-02 10::58:56] MalfermitaKodo: even there, I think mIRC is the most user hostile IRC client
[2009-08-02 10::59:11] Broca: JimViaPhp: it's working.
[2009-08-02 10::59:19] MalfermitaKodo: works, jimhenry1
[2009-08-02 10::59:19] saizai: whee
[2009-08-02 10::59:21] jimhenry1: ok I sort of have chat.php working in that I can say stuff there and see what I said in the pidgin IRC client
[2009-08-02 10::59:37] jimhenry1: but in my firefox tab open to chat.php I can't read what I or anyone else is saying
[2009-08-02 10::59:46] MalfermitaKodo: 
      
        :o
      
    
[2009-08-02 10::59:48] cbecker: there's still mibbit.com
[2009-08-02 10::59:50] jimhenry1: possibly a font problem, I am seeing what looks like the bottom half of each character
[2009-08-02 10::59:59] saizai: sooooo
[2009-08-02 11::00:02] saizai: it's 11am PST now
[2009-08-02 11::00:24] saizai: should we wait for adam or no
[2009-08-02 11::00:40] saizai: he's still struggling with connection settings
[2009-08-02 11::01:22] cbecker: he could simply install chatzilla and point his browser to irc://irc.freenode.net/#lcs
[2009-08-02 11::01:23] Broca: I can wait.
[2009-08-02 11::01:35] jimhenry1: y'all are on standard time in california?  we're on daylight time in georgia
[2009-08-02 11::01:36] cbecker: browser = firefox, for that matter
[2009-08-02 11::01:59] saizai: jim: I dunno, but it's 11AM now
[2009-08-02 11::02:01] saizai: and I'm in ca
[2009-08-02 11::02:09] jimhenry1: I easily forget which states use daylight savings time and which don't
[2009-08-02 11::02:10] saizai: I forget time changes etc
[2009-08-02 11::02:24] saizai: we definitely do use dst
[2009-08-02 11::02:27] cbecker: we're in cest right now
[2009-08-02 11::02:27] » DN joined the chat room.
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[2009-08-02 11::02:38] cbecker: so utc+2
[2009-08-02 11::02:58] jimhenry1: hmm, I read your message saying 11am PST and read it as = 12 noon PDT and 3pm EDT
[2009-08-02 11::03:04] jimhenry1: but lots of people are here so let's start
[2009-08-02 11::03:04] saizai: enh fuckit, let's start eh
[2009-08-02 11::03:25] MalfermitaKodo: yeah
[2009-08-02 11::03:26] jimhenry1: I will need to quit to get ready for church at 4pm EDT anyway
[2009-08-02 11::03:36] saizai: and others will probably come in later
[2009-08-02 11::03:39] saizai: so right
[2009-08-02 11::03:41] saizai: *cough*
[2009-08-02 11::03:55] saizai: welcome all to the first *mumble*ual conlang IRC meet
[2009-08-02 11::04:04] jimhenry1: ObConlang: how do you render "o'clock" in your conlang, assuming your conlang's speakers keep moderately precise track of time?
[2009-08-02 11::04:12] saizai: [oy]
[2009-08-02 11::04:31] » klaid joined the chat room.
[2009-08-02 11::04:32] » klaid was granted voice by ChanServ.
[2009-08-02 11::04:52] saizai: we're here to have a regular chat about conlangs
[2009-08-02 11::04:59] cbecker: pidim 23
[2009-08-02 11::05:04] MalfermitaKodo: jimhenry1: Rejistanis use the word for 'hour'
[2009-08-02 11::05:07] cbecker: 'pidim' means 'hour'
[2009-08-02 11::05:12] saizai: there are IRC channels - freenode #conlang, sorcery #isharia - where people can hang out and just chat
[2009-08-02 11::05:18] saizai: but I know a lot of us aren't really into that
[2009-08-02 11::05:38] saizai: and it was brought up @ LCC3 that this'd be a nice way to just get people together in some more directed way
[2009-08-02 11::05:59] » MigoMipo joined the chat room.
[2009-08-02 11::06:00] » MigoMipo was granted voice by ChanServ.
[2009-08-02 11::06:05] saizai: we'll have an initial topic, but that's mostly to seed things
[2009-08-02 11::06:16] saizai: break the ice and all that
[2009-08-02 11::06:33] cbecker: discussions are bound to stray
[2009-08-02 11::06:36] saizai: quite
[2009-08-02 11::06:51] saizai: first off, as Broca suggested, let's just go round and introduce ourselves
[2009-08-02 11::07:56] Broca: Sure. I'm Broca, otherwise known as Arnt Richard Johansen. I'm mostly a Lojban guy, but I do have my own artlang that I fiddle with from time to time.
[2009-08-02 11::08:15] saizai: (plz include real names btw, so people can associate w/ other places)
[2009-08-02 11::08:16] » timonator joined the chat room.
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[2009-08-02 11::08:38] » Adam joined the chat room.
[2009-08-02 11::08:38] » Adam was granted voice by ChanServ.
[2009-08-02 11::08:40] wmannis: I'm Wm Annis, unix nerd by day, crazed amateur philologist by night.  Most focused on my ancient Greek projects, but Arica O's book brought me back to conglang joy.  Vaior is probably my only known conlang.
[2009-08-02 11::08:41] B-rat: (what if our real name isnt in any other places?)
[2009-08-02 11::08:46] » Adam is now known as Guest4650.
[2009-08-02 11::08:46] jimhenry1: jimhenry = Jim Henry, jimhenry1973@gmail.com, http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry
[2009-08-02 11::08:46] jimhenry1: I created and use gjâ-zym-byn, a personal artlang/engelang, and am working intermittently on several other artlangs and one other engelang
[2009-08-02 11::08:46] jimhenry1: and have been doing research on conlangers' fluency in their own conlangs, and designing and testing Glossotechnia, a conlanging card game, and working with Alex Fink on conlang generation software
[2009-08-02 11::09:11] » JimViaPhp left the chat room.
[2009-08-02 11::09:17] cbecker: I'm Carsten Becker, mostly lurking at conlang-l, creator of Ayeri (http://benung.nfshost.com), and I'm living in Kassel, Germany
[2009-08-02 11::09:18] MalfermitaKodo: is Mechthild Czapp, on the list, I learned Esperanto and created the artlang rejistanian 
[2009-08-02 11::09:43] saizai: soum, hi. I'm Sai Emrys. ObCL, I like nonlinear writing systems, gripping language, and meta stuff; mostly engelang. I do a bunch of podcast.conlang.org, run the conference, etc. Outside, I like cognitive neuroscience, meditation, aikido, lots of stuff. see my blog @ saizai.com if you care.
[2009-08-02 11::09:55] MalfermitaKodo: oh, and Kenshuite he mo gie, a weird artlang
[2009-08-02 11::10:41] » MigoMipo left the chat room.
[2009-08-02 11::11:05] saizai: B-rat: well, it's polite anyway, but up to you. ID yourself so people know who you are elsewhere at least.
[2009-08-02 11::11:31] » Sxem joined the chat room.
[2009-08-02 11::11:31] » Sxem was granted voice by ChanServ.
[2009-08-02 11::11:58] Guest4650: I don't think anyone knows me from elsewhere, but I am Adam. And I like to experient with some conlangs and like to read about linguistics.
[2009-08-02 11::12:15] saizai: Guest4650: please type /nick Adam
[2009-08-02 11::12:28] saizai: or /nick AdamLastname
[2009-08-02 11::12:37] saizai: (Adam is probably taken)
[2009-08-02 11::12:55] B-rat: i'm Andrej. i go by b-rat everywhere, never by my actual name. i'm barely beginning to break into the wonderful world of conlanging so i dont have any finished or published works but i have fiddled around with artful writing systems, and am also a general weirdo/ecentric
[2009-08-02 11::13:05] timonator: hello, i am Timo Paulssen, Lojban enthusiast by day and sleeper by night, and mostly just here because klaid told me to
[2009-08-02 11::13:19] B-rat: eccentric rather*
[2009-08-02 11::13:27] MalfermitaKodo: *lol*
[2009-08-02 11::14:20] » jimhenry joined the chat room.
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[2009-08-02 11::15:06] jimhenry: as for the topic: gzb's design was mostly based on avoidance of the primary features of the natlangs I knew best, but some minor features came from Greek
[2009-08-02 11::15:14] saizai: DN, klaid, linquenolloke, lucky, Slereah_, Sxem - intro?
[2009-08-02 11::15:37] saizai: jimhenry: hold on that for a sec, we'll explain that once intros are done
[2009-08-02 11::15:39] » Guest4650 is now known as AdamFerguson.
[2009-08-02 11::17:19] saizai: ... hm, maybe they've gone mute
[2009-08-02 11::18:09] jimhenry: ok... it had been six minutes since anyone said anything
[2009-08-02 11::18:13] saizai: right
[2009-08-02 11::18:15] MalfermitaKodo: or prefer lurkage
[2009-08-02 11::18:21] saizai: so jim, explain the topic?
[2009-08-02 11::18:42] timonator: oh if i knew i would have gotten away with being mute, …
[2009-08-02 11::19:04] saizai: pff, the point is to be social ;)
[2009-08-02 11::19:58] timonator: btw, i am saddened by the lack of updates on your gripping language
[2009-08-02 11::20:05] DN: Dana Nutter, best known for creating auxlangs like SASXSEK (www.sasxsek.org) and now mostly working on my personal language, Deini.  I have a website of my conlangs that I try to keep updated:  http://conlang.dana.nutter.net
[2009-08-02 11::20:06] saizai: timonator: we just posted some on conlang
[2009-08-02 11::20:44] timonator: oh, sorry. gotta read that soon. thanks!
[2009-08-02 11::21:07] jimhenry: topic: I suggested talking about our favorite natlangs and what features we've stolen from them for our conlangs
[2009-08-02 11::21:28] jimhenry: (are we still waiting for more introductions?)
[2009-08-02 11::21:44] DN: I expect introductions will run on as people sign in.
[2009-08-02 11::21:52] saizai: (I think we've figured everyone else is lurking, rude, or afk :p)
[2009-08-02 11::22:14] saizai: so jim, you might as well start and explain it for yours
[2009-08-02 11::22:45] jimhenry: so I was saying I had taken some minor features of gzb from Greek.....    e.g. having a separate negative imperative particle besides the negative indicative particle (though the me / ou distinction in Greek isn't as simple as the źǒ / heŋ distinction in gzb
[2009-08-02 11::22:56] » Rakko joined the chat room.
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[2009-08-02 11::22:57] MalfermitaKodo: Oh dear... I was young and innocent when I started Rejistanian... I took so much from German and English... It started almost as a relex
[2009-08-02 11::23:41] AdamFerguson: I like taking things from different languages that might not exist together naturally.
[2009-08-02 11::23:42] MalfermitaKodo: it changed greatly now
[2009-08-02 11::24:04] cbecker: looking at my own conlang it's awfully indoeuropean as well sometimes
[2009-08-02 11::24:31] DN: Favorite natlangs and their influence:  Deini, being a personal language tends to show my prefereces.  I tend to favor Germanic languages, but also have a fondness for Russian and Slavic languages.  I'm attempting fluency in Spanish so I'm find it more and more influential over time.
[2009-08-02 11::24:39] jimhenry: more recently I borrowed some grammatical particles from Hixkaryana for gzb, e.g. gzb ŝe < Hixkaryana "xa" /ʃæ/ , "by contrast / on the contrary"
[2009-08-02 11::25:13] cbecker: however, I quite liked that in sae languages there is no plural marking, or only optional plural marking. that went into my conlang as well. so e.g. when a number modifies a noun, you don't need to mark that noun for plural.
[2009-08-02 11::25:18] jimhenry: Carsten: Ayeri was influenced a lot by Tagalog, right?
[2009-08-02 11::25:22] saizai: DN: FWIW, I found deini pretty easy to read without knowing it. Yay you taking stuff from languages I know.
[2009-08-02 11::25:34] cbecker: jimhenry: not *a lot*
[2009-08-02 11::25:35] jimhenry: or am I thinking of another Austronesian language?
[2009-08-02 11::25:48] MalfermitaKodo: cbecker: I took that from Turkish into Rejistanian as well
[2009-08-02 11::26:06] cbecker: I wanted it to have an "austronesian alignment" system, but essentially I failed
[2009-08-02 11::26:35] cbecker: it's developed into a nicely weird thing which I don't think would survive like that in the wild, though
[2009-08-02 11::26:58] DN: SASXSEK on the other hand is influenced by its design goals so I avoid personal tastes in favor of practicality.
[2009-08-02 11::27:09] wmannis: A century or two of strange typological mixes aren't generally fatal.  :)
[2009-08-02 11::27:19] Broca: Sasxsek is an engelang, isn't it? (Is it permissible to proper-case he name?)
[2009-08-02 11::27:23] saizai: DN: how strongly? You don't seem like an engelanger.
[2009-08-02 11::28:13] DN: Sai>  Languages I know, at least partially, too.
[2009-08-02 11::28:20] lucky: Hmmm, I tend to try to create a language which, superficially, seems "natural", at least to me.  There's various irregularities in morphology, etc.  i've been heavily influenced by Celtic and Germanic languages, grammatically and phonetically.  Superficially so as well, for grammar.
[2009-08-02 11::28:36] cbecker: including deliberate irregularities has never been my thing
[2009-08-02 11::28:44] Broca: Like Tolkien, my first love was Finnish. Not so much for the phonotactics as for the case system. So I used a lot of locative case suffixes for my first artlang, which now is on the scrapheap of history. My second and current conlang also uses a lot of locative cases. I also stole the negative verb from Finnish.
[2009-08-02 11::29:06] cbecker: I think if I wanted a language with natural irregularity I'd have to create a proto-language first and then fast-forward it some centuries
[2009-08-02 11::29:11] lucky: first love was... hmm.  Probably Old Norse.
[2009-08-02 11::29:17] » jimhenry2 joined the chat room.
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[2009-08-02 11::29:24] jimhenry2: is http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Conlang/Advanced/Grammar/Alignment/Trigger  a good summary?
[2009-08-02 11::29:34] DN: I write it SASXSEK because it's a caseless orthography.  Suggested use is to use TITLE CASE for signs, titles, headings and lowercase for general text.  I sometimes write it "Sasxsek" in English.
[2009-08-02 11::29:51] cbecker: jimhenry: I should delete that
[2009-08-02 11::29:52] MalfermitaKodo: I tried to make Lajik the weirdest and hardest imaginable language without any 'random' irregularities
[2009-08-02 11::29:54] cbecker: I wrote it IIRC
[2009-08-02 11::30:17] saizai: MalfermitaKodo: like Brainfuck?
[2009-08-02 11::30:20] » jimhenry1 left the chat room.
[2009-08-02 11::30:24] MalfermitaKodo: a harddisk crash ended that eperiment, I think my computer hasa sense of taste ;)
[2009-08-02 11::30:31] cbecker: thoug it seems someone has added stuff, or rectified it
[2009-08-02 11::30:36] » gwalla joined the chat room.
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[2009-08-02 11::30:36] cbecker: maybe
[2009-08-02 11::30:36] cbecker: whatever
[2009-08-02 11::30:57] cbecker: for actual austronesian alignment, better read wikipedia
[2009-08-02 11::30:59] Broca: My knowledge of Finnish has deepened over the years. I had some phonotactical problems fitting the endings to the stems. I decided to insert an -e- where there would otherwise be impracticable consonant clusters. I now think of it as a cop-out, but I'm reluctant to apply the Finnish solution to the problem (stem variations).
[2009-08-02 11::30:59] MalfermitaKodo: saizai: not quite that badly...
[2009-08-02 11::31:13] jimhenry2: the trigger page .... I think you wrote the first draft, I and David Peterson and some others edited it a lot
[2009-08-02 11::31:14] wmannis: I have a hard time keeping Ancient Greek out of my languages, just because it has a lot of little tidbits I like to steal.
[2009-08-02 11::31:25] jimhenry2: suggest you comment on the talk page about what's wrong with it rather than or as well as delete it outright
[2009-08-02 11::31:32] DN: No, S:S: (that's the native abbrevation used) is not an engelang.  It's a world auxililiary language, designed to be accomodating to a wide variety of linguistic habits.
[2009-08-02 11::31:32] cbecker: I definitely should go on writing my grammar
[2009-08-02 11::31:32] wmannis: Anyone who knows Greek and looks closely at Vaior through squinted eyes will see a lot of borrowing.
[2009-08-02 11::31:36] cbecker: Payne is on my desk right now
[2009-08-02 11::31:42] cbecker: chapter 5.4, Case
[2009-08-02 11::32:00] jimhenry2: finnish inspired another artlang of mine which I haven't published anything about yet
[2009-08-02 11::32:00] Broca: grabs his Payne
[2009-08-02 11::32:08] DN: MalfermitaKodo>  I started a project like that, trying to make something difficult.
[2009-08-02 11::32:14] cbecker: Broca: page 100
[2009-08-02 11::32:16] jimhenry2: specifically, having lots of cases and having the stem and/or the affix change when phonotactics violation would result from simple agglutination
[2009-08-02 11::32:38] cbecker: my goal is still to work through that to get a halfway comprehensive grammar at last
[2009-08-02 11::32:40] Broca: cbecker: thanks.
[2009-08-02 11::32:43] saizai: BTW all - please start your message w/ "name: " if you're responding to someone; it helps make thing easier to read
[2009-08-02 11::33:14] Broca: jimhenry2: yes. I think a lot of conlangers start out with agglutination, then get dissatisfied with it and try to make it more complex.
[2009-08-02 11::33:34] jimhenry2: yes, the trigger page explicitly says that trigger alignment is found only in conlangs, and has a cross-ref to wikipedia article on austronesian alignment, but says they are not the same thing
[2009-08-02 11::33:56] cbecker: gwalla: is that George Williams, creator of FontForge?
[2009-08-02 11::33:57] wmannis: Several pieces of Láadan make their way into even my briefest language sketches, but the more I learn about Navajo, the more I realize I'm really borrowing from that, and a few other Amerindian languages.
[2009-08-02 11::34:43] saizai: cbecker: nope, garth wallace per whois
[2009-08-02 11::34:53] gwalla: cbecker: Hm? No, this is Garth Wallace from conlang-l and the conlangs lj community
[2009-08-02 11::34:58] gwalla: what sai said
[2009-08-02 11::34:59] DN: Speaking of Amerind languages, anyone implementing evidential markers as a grammatical requirement?
[2009-08-02 11::35:00] B-rat: for the writing system that i've been making during boring classes at school i've been mainly influenced by egyptian and some other conlangs that aim to produce a pictographic orthography, i've also tried to make my version of an atlantean language which is basically trying to fit latin into finnish phonology ;p
[2009-08-02 11::35:07] saizai: me first \o/
[2009-08-02 11::35:07] cbecker: gwalla: oh
[2009-08-02 11::35:08] cbecker: sorry
[2009-08-02 11::35:11] gwalla: no prob
[2009-08-02 11::35:28] wmannis: Broca: agglutination does seem like a nice way to experiment with semantic ideas, before moving on to other ways to express the same thing.
[2009-08-02 11::35:49] Rakko: Hi, all
[2009-08-02 11::35:55] cbecker: it's just I have subscribed to fontforge-devel, and George William's handle is similar
[2009-08-02 11::35:57] MalfermitaKodo: B-rat: you also created it in school? ;)
[2009-08-02 11::35:58] cbecker: IIRC
[2009-08-02 11::36:00] saizai: B-rat: pictographic or ideographic?
[2009-08-02 11::36:08] jimhenry2: wmannis: have been reading some about navaho recently, & would like to use certain features from it in an artlang, but am not sure which of my sketches they would fit, yet
[2009-08-02 11::36:08] Broca: wmannis: indeed.
[2009-08-02 11::36:31] saizai: cbecker: I don't remember ever seeing him on conlang/auxlang, and that's where this was advertised
[2009-08-02 11::36:42] wmannis: jimhenry2: Navajo's verb system's dials all go to 11.  There
[2009-08-02 11::36:51] wmannis: 's plenty there to draw on.  :)
[2009-08-02 11::36:54] cbecker: saizai: ok
[2009-08-02 11::36:58] jimhenry2: wmannis: specifically the transitivizer which turns impersonal verbs into intransitive as well as intransitive into transitive, and the way motion verbs work
[2009-08-02 11::37:05] cbecker: jimhenry2: http://benung.nfshost.com/index.php?go=grammar&action=grammar#case ← that should give some idea I hope
[2009-08-02 11::37:10] cbecker: of how my stuff works I mean
[2009-08-02 11::38:21] DN: For those unfamiliar, Deini may have European roots but it's most unique feature is its a priori "native" script.  Unfortunately since I can't count on anyway having the fonts, or even Unicode capabilities, I have to use Romanizations.
[2009-08-02 11::38:58] cbecker: your use of <x> for /@/ always strikes me as a little odd btw ;)
[2009-08-02 11::39:05] B-rat: saizai, pictographic for most things, but certain grammatical constructs need ideographs to express
[2009-08-02 11::39:13] saizai: B-rat: like what
[2009-08-02 11::39:13] MalfermitaKodo: Rejistanian has a rather boring alphabetic cript which I designed to be able to write quickly in it
[2009-08-02 11::39:25] B-rat: MalfermitaKodo, i was bored during my native language's literature classes :P
[2009-08-02 11::39:30] B-rat: saizai, like negation
[2009-08-02 11::39:53] MalfermitaKodo: B-rat: me too! And during Maths
[2009-08-02 11::39:59] B-rat: or "thought"
[2009-08-02 11::40:17] saizai: why can't "thought" be pictographic?
[2009-08-02 11::40:25] B-rat: although i try to revise the ideographs into pictographs if i get an idea
[2009-08-02 11::40:54] saizai: DN: linky to script?
[2009-08-02 11::41:13] B-rat: i'm not sure how to draw a thought :/
[2009-08-02 11::41:24] saizai: grins
[2009-08-02 11::41:34] saizai: colorless and green, duh
[2009-08-02 11::41:36] MalfermitaKodo: thought in Rejistanian is derived from the word head. Asav'tan vs asav'het
[2009-08-02 11::41:38] jimhenry2: cbecker: I have edited the links on the conlang wikibook "trigger" page per your msg
[2009-08-02 11::41:49] B-rat: haha
[2009-08-02 11::41:49] DN: cbecker:  Got the idea from Rick Harrison's languages Vorlin and Jigwa.  Also note it's like the IPA marker for vowel centralization.  Being a worldlang I needed to keep it 7-bit ASCII for maximum compatibility.  The <x> also carried over to a couple other creations like the Deini Romanization which has seven vowels.
[2009-08-02 11::41:56] B-rat: oh! also colour
[2009-08-02 11::42:06] » clsn joined the chat room.
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[2009-08-02 11::42:06] B-rat: i remember that was just three overlapping circles
[2009-08-02 11::42:12] B-rat: i'm not sure if that constitutes a pictograph
[2009-08-02 11::42:21] saizai: welcome, clsn. care to ID?
[2009-08-02 11::42:38] cbecker: btw, for the script nerds: Nae from #isharia has an interesting project going on: http://naeddyr.wordpress.com/
[2009-08-02 11::42:47] cbecker: finnish morphosemantic script
[2009-08-02 11::43:04] jimhenry2: B-rat: re thinking in pictographs, see the recent conlang list thread on "What is your qualia of consciousness / thought?" from April 3 onward
[2009-08-02 11::43:14] clsn: I'm Mark Shoulson, conlanger from prehistoric times... Not on conlang much these days, but still doing Lojban and Klingon stuff.
[2009-08-02 11::43:54] saizai: oh, hi. glad you could join
[2009-08-02 11::43:58] B-rat: jimhenry, where?
[2009-08-02 11::43:58] DN: SAI: http://conlang.dana.nutter.net/files/Deini_Script.pdf  (caveat:  The examples are outdated, therefore inaccurate but the description of the script and phonology are still good.  I'll probably be updating them in the next few days)
[2009-08-02 11::43:58] jimhenry2: B-rat: looking up the link on archives website now
[2009-08-02 11::44:19] B-rat: i dont really keep up with the online community.
[2009-08-02 11::44:23] » Meeply joined the chat room.
[2009-08-02 11::44:23] » Meeply was granted voice by ChanServ.
[2009-08-02 11::44:26] DN: SAI: There's also an article on Omniglot, assuming it's back up.
[2009-08-02 11::44:29] cbecker: the basic idea of Nae's script is here: http://naeddyr.wordpress.com/2009/03/11/had-an-idea-for-a-conscript/
[2009-08-02 11::44:50] saizai: DN: so you have a writeup of the design specs?
[2009-08-02 11::45:12] » jimhenry left the chat room.
[2009-08-02 11::45:15] jimhenry2: B-rat: the thread starts here: http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0904a&L=conlang&T=0&F=&S=&P=8231
[2009-08-02 11::46:54] B-rat: hm.. i dont know how to navigate that site
[2009-08-02 11::47:49] cbecker: B-rat: click on "next in topic" to go on
[2009-08-02 11::47:59] B-rat: oh, thanks
[2009-08-02 11::48:47] B-rat: jimhenry2, interesting
[2009-08-02 11::48:49] DN: SAI: Design specs for SASXSEK?   Yes, and no.  It's been in my mind, but nothing on paper except for a document that I haven't published yet evaluating various languages, both con and nat, as auxlangs for global use.
[2009-08-02 11::51:09] B-rat: jimhenry2, i've never really given that much thought, but as this reply says http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0904a&L=conlang&D=0&T=0&P=8633
[2009-08-02 11::51:20] B-rat: jimhenry2, i often experience two trains of thought when reading
[2009-08-02 11::51:33] B-rat: one following the book, the other going off on tangents of what iv'e read
[2009-08-02 11::51:49] DN: It looks like Omniglot is back so here's the article on the Deini script.  (again, obsolete examples)  http://www.omniglot.com/writing/deini.php
[2009-08-02 11::51:57] DN: B-Rat:  It looks like Jim H. left.
[2009-08-02 11::52:05] B-rat: he's still here
[2009-08-02 11::52:07] B-rat: or at least, a copy of him :P
[2009-08-02 11::52:18] saizai: DN: you said the writing system is a priori; that tends to imply some sort of design spec
[2009-08-02 11::53:32] » halyihev joined the chat room.
[2009-08-02 11::53:32] » halyihev was granted voice by ChanServ.
[2009-08-02 11::53:35] jimhenry2: B-rat re: trains of thought...
[2009-08-02 11::53:58] Broca: cbecker: thanks for the FMSS link. Is there a more detailed writeup somewhere?
[2009-08-02 11::54:00] jimhenry2: I get that too, but I think they are usually alternating rather than strictly parallel
[2009-08-02 11::54:12] » gwalla is now known as gwalla-afk.
[2009-08-02 11::54:39] cbecker: Broca: I only know what is on Nae's blog and on his deviantart page, naeddyr.deviantart.com
[2009-08-02 11::54:43] jimhenry2: like multiple threads or processes on a single-cpu machine, rapidly alternating, rather than truly simultaneous threads or processes on a machine with two or more CPUs
[2009-08-02 11::54:57] jimhenry2: or that's what it feels like
[2009-08-02 11::55:22] jimhenry2: halyihev: hi!
[2009-08-02 11::55:28] DN: SAI: Oh, I thought you were referring to S:S:.  No, I put nothing in writing about the Deini script design but the glyphs are based on a 3x3 grid with curves added to make them easier to write by hand.  I also intentionally made each of the alphabetic symbols so they could be written without lifting up the pen.
[2009-08-02 11::55:53] halyihev: hello!  Or should I say Ñëláshkî!
[2009-08-02 11::56:08] saizai: howdy halyihev, care to introduce yourself? ;)
[2009-08-02 11::56:27] cbecker: manyang vās
[2009-08-02 11::56:30] jimhenry2: halyihev: ť hǒ, Ќ gǒ.
[2009-08-02 11::56:33] saizai: DN: FYI, that ("S:S:") reminds me a lot of the OTO usages :p
[2009-08-02 11::56:59] DN: SAI: OTO?
[2009-08-02 11::57:02] halyihev: I'm Tony, the one with the conlang "Alurhsa".  Saw some of you at LCS3, and occasionally even say something on the listserv. ;)
[2009-08-02 11::57:33] saizai: DN: Ordo Templi Orientalis. check WP or msg me
[2009-08-02 11::57:35] halyihev: I'm semi-lurking now, too, as I'm working on someone's computer while monitoring this via my laptop.
[2009-08-02 11::57:41] » wmannis left the chat room.
[2009-08-02 11::58:07] saizai: DN: Why 3x3 grid?
[2009-08-02 11::58:52] Rakko: likes to pronounce _OTOH_ as /o"to/ and thinks that would be a cool word to put in a conlang
[2009-08-02 11::59:40] cbecker: /@feIk/
[2009-08-02 11::59:54] Rakko: Yeah! Ditto _IMHO_ /"Imho/ and _IMO_ /"imo/
[2009-08-02 12::00:12] MalfermitaKodo: BTW: here is some rejistanian text: http://666kb.com/i/b98qdvym62sxaqip6.gif
[2009-08-02 12::00:35] MalfermitaKodo: while we spoke about conscripts I searched for this example
[2009-08-02 12::00:36] cbecker: wtf is still [wOt D@ fVk] for me though...
[2009-08-02 12::00:39] Broca: [ˈjænəl]
[2009-08-02 12::01:00] jimhenry2: Rakko: I thought about borrowing "FWIW" into gzb as "fwĭw" (a content root word) or "fwew" (an adverbial particle) but haven't made up my mind yet
[2009-08-02 12::01:04] Rakko: hehe
[2009-08-02 12::01:21] saizai: Rakko: you're a geek :p
[2009-08-02 12::01:36] cbecker: Broca: what acronym is that supposed to be?
[2009-08-02 12::01:43] Rakko: definitely
[2009-08-02 12::01:50] Rakko: IANAL
[2009-08-02 12::01:53] Broca: [ˈwɪskɪ ˈtænɡəʊ ˈfɔkstrət]
[2009-08-02 12::02:35] Rakko: sorry, didn't mean to direct everyone off-topic
[2009-08-02 12::03:04] DN: Sai: 3x3 just seemed simple at the time.  The script originally was kind of an experiment that I made when toying with an a priori script for auxlangs so I wanted to make something that would work on 12-segment LED/LCD equipment.  I quickly scrapped the idea because it's just not practical to use a new script for an auxlang.  I liked the idea though, so redid the whole thing to fit Deini's...
[2009-08-02 12::03:04] DN: ...phonology.
[2009-08-02 12::03:14] saizai: Rakko: it's IRC. it happens. :p
[2009-08-02 12::03:27] DN: Jim H.:  I borrowed "SNAFU" and "FUBAR" as lexicals for Deini.
[2009-08-02 12::03:53] saizai: DN: FYI, you can probably type the first couple letters of someone's nick, then tab, and it'll autocomplete. Easier to type.
[2009-08-02 12::04:13] saizai: that's a neat constraint though
[2009-08-02 12::04:40] saizai: there are certainly people who've made auxlangs with novel scripts...
[2009-08-02 12::05:13] jimhenry2: saizai and DN: basing a script on a grid is something Douglas Hofstadter did with a family of interesting Latin typefaces in "Metamagical Themas"
[2009-08-02 12::05:28] Rakko: I still have to read that
[2009-08-02 12::05:52] saizai: likewise
[2009-08-02 12::05:55] saizai: I never finished GEB
[2009-08-02 12::06:13] jimhenry2: it was a more complex grid with both vertical and horizontal and diagonal lines, and each letter had to use a subset of the lines on the grid, kine of like digits on an LED
[2009-08-02 12::06:16] saizai: I did do an ASL version of Ma Mignone though
[2009-08-02 12::06:25] Rakko: I finally got a copy, after disappointedly finding out that the libraries in the area had all gotten rid of their copies
[2009-08-02 12::06:32] saizai: doh, I forgot italics doesn't work :p
[2009-08-02 12::06:33] MalfermitaKodo: sounds like my number system
[2009-08-02 12::06:50] jimhenry2: most conlangers would probably enjoy at least certain chapters of "Metamagical Themas" and most or all of "Le Ton Beau de Marôt"
[2009-08-02 12::06:59] saizai: that also reminds me of one of the psuedo-nonlinear writing systems I saw
[2009-08-02 12::07:07] saizai: I liked LTBdM :)
[2009-08-02 12::07:21] saizai: it was a bit chatty / verbose, but still
[2009-08-02 12::07:29] clsn: LTBdM I have not read yet.
[2009-08-02 12::07:32] Rakko: hurray, spotlight finally indexed my home dir!
[2009-08-02 12::07:33] MalfermitaKodo: what is LTBdM?
[2009-08-02 12::07:38] clsn: I read the others eons ago.
[2009-08-02 12::07:42] saizai: it's about translations
[2009-08-02 12::07:44] saizai: sorta.
[2009-08-02 12::07:47] Rakko: Le Ton Beau de Marôt
[2009-08-02 12::07:58] saizai: of this one poem, Ma Mignone
[2009-08-02 12::08:16] saizai: and issues with translating in general, etc etc. Goes pretty far "off topic". ;)
[2009-08-02 12::08:51] saizai: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79wDRTGGRLE for my version
[2009-08-02 12::09:06] jimhenry2: that's the jumping-off point, but it's about translation in general, especially of poetry, and about how poetry and other hard-to-translate material differs from ordinary language.... he even describes a translation relay game (among a group of professional translators, through a series of natlangs)
[2009-08-02 12::09:28] DN: saizai: There may be some auxlangs with new scripts but the modern reality is that no current machinery would accomdate them.
[2009-08-02 12::09:47] saizai: yeah, the relay was neat
[2009-08-02 12::10:02] saizai: DN: who said auxlangers have to be realisitc? :)
[2009-08-02 12::10:30] DN: saizai: How good is your ASL?
[2009-08-02 12::10:37] clsn: Hey, that's the extent of his belief or suspension of disbelief...
[2009-08-02 12::11:04] saizai: we got an ... interesting manuscript, during LCC3. it's an ideographic auxlang. Entertaining read.
[2009-08-02 12::11:29] MalfermitaKodo: Rejistanian is a fictional auxlang with a new writing system :) So, yeah, it works
[2009-08-02 12::11:33] clsn: A novel script would make an auxlang less likely to succeed.  If you choose to believe that it might succeed in the first place.
[2009-08-02 12::11:35] saizai: DN: near fluent. Enough to have most conversations, not enough to easily comprehend at full speed.
[2009-08-02 12::12:17] saizai: http://conference.conlang.org/lcc3/posters/Milan_Randic-Nobel_1.pdf (and 2, and 3) if you want to read
[2009-08-02 12::12:30] jimhenry2: besides esperanto with its at-the-time unique circumflexed consonants, there's been some other auxlangs that didn't restrict themselves to ASCII or Latin-1
[2009-08-02 12::12:39] jimhenry2: Noxilo for instance has its own alphabet
[2009-08-02 12::12:48] DN: saizai: Well, I'm realistic enough to see the futility, but creating auxlangs still is a challenge.
[2009-08-02 12::13:06] cbecker: shavian never caught on either
[2009-08-02 12::13:34] saizai: DN: I think all auxlangers have to have at least a little bit of idealism trumping pragmatism
[2009-08-02 12::14:09] saizai: (and that's meant value-neutrally; idealism is fun)
[2009-08-02 12::14:18] jimhenry2: re: hofstadter's gridfonts: see here http://books.google.com/books?id=somvbmHCaOEC&pg=RA2-PA461&dq=gridfont+hofstadter&ei=ZeV1StPGD42-zAT_mpyBAw#v=onepage&q=gridfont%20hofstadter&f=false
[2009-08-02 12::14:23] DN: saizai: I don't know any, which is what has been holding up the gestured version of S:S:.  I'm thinking of maybe adapting signs from Gestuno.
[2009-08-02 12::14:46] saizai: I don't know Gestuno, except that its fingerspelling is 2 different from ASL's
[2009-08-02 12::14:58] saizai: 'cause ASL F and T are rude in some places
[2009-08-02 12::15:00] jimhenry2: the section from "metamagical themas" is not on google books, but if you find a copy it's on pages 598+ of the Basic Books trade paperback edition
[2009-08-02 12::16:02] Rakko: heh
[2009-08-02 12::16:10] Broca: I get why T is rude, but F?
[2009-08-02 12::16:10] cbecker: "No preview available"
[2009-08-02 12::16:54] jimhenry2: cbecker: weird, maybe google books is random in whether it lets you view any given page of a copyrighted book on any given visit to the site?
[2009-08-02 12::17:04] Rakko: I think it is somewhat.
[2009-08-02 12::17:05] saizai: Broca: T is "figa" (sorta like a 'fuck you' grade version of 'nothing') in Eastern Europe; F is "asshole" in South America 
[2009-08-02 12::17:05] cbecker: maybe depends oon the country
[2009-08-02 12::17:11] cbecker: like youtube won't let you see videos sometimes
[2009-08-02 12::17:23] cbecker: because of copyright limitations in your country
[2009-08-02 12::17:26] Broca: saizai: oh.
[2009-08-02 12::17:37] DN: S:S: already has a manual alphabet:  ISTR taking it from German Sign.  I'd like to expand that to include signs for all the most common morphemes.
[2009-08-02 12::17:45] jimhenry2: so actually looking in metamagical themas for a phrase from page 599, "seven complete gridfonts by me", would work for you as it did not for me
[2009-08-02 12::17:47] saizai: ironically, _Book from the Ground_ uses some such.
[2009-08-02 12::17:56] saizai: it uses F for "ok / good" IIRC
[2009-08-02 12::18:09] Broca: There is an alternative, older version of H in Norwegian Sign Language, but I think it's a vestige of an older system rather than taboo avoidance.
[2009-08-02 12::18:23] saizai: d'you know NSL, Broca?
[2009-08-02 12::18:42] Broca: Only a few signs, alas.
[2009-08-02 12::18:49] saizai: how/why?
[2009-08-02 12::19:05] cbecker: I know nothing about GSL
[2009-08-02 12::19:28] clsn: I'm mildly surprised there aren't more gestures in ASL fingerspelling that are taboo somewhere or other.
[2009-08-02 12::20:17] saizai: yeah. middle finger isn't even a valid handshape
[2009-08-02 12::20:44] saizai: well, not except as that :p
[2009-08-02 12::21:20] Broca: saizai: I was born with a hearing problem, but I'm not actually deaf. I've been to “hard-of-hearing camps” a couple of times where there were a couple of hours of instruction in “sign”.
[2009-08-02 12::21:20] clsn: I'm not sure you're speaking along the same lines as I was.
[2009-08-02 12::21:38] Rakko: How commonly used is Signed English?
[2009-08-02 12::21:58] saizai: Broca: ah, neat. A bit weird that it's only a couple of hours though, that's not enough to get communication ability :/
[2009-08-02 12::22:10] saizai: Rakko: very, in some circles
[2009-08-02 12::22:19] saizai: in most it's sorta a mix
[2009-08-02 12::22:33] DN: Rakko:  I don't know of any "signed English"?  Is there such a thing?
[2009-08-02 12::22:41] Rakko: I know people use it while simultaneously speaking English
[2009-08-02 12::22:41] clsn: From what O
[2009-08-02 12::22:44] saizai: DN: There are two, actually
[2009-08-02 12::23:02] saizai: Signed Exact English (SEE1?) and some other thing that initializes to SEE
[2009-08-02 12::23:12] Broca: saizai: yes, it was a bit wasted IMO. But the public only funds honest-to-goodness education in sign for the deaf and their closest family. And for interpreters, of course.
[2009-08-02 12::23:27] clsn: From what I've seen (I took a few courses in ASL), it seems that the line between ASL and signed English is not entirely hard and sharp.  Is that right, saizai?  I think you know more about the subject than I do.
[2009-08-02 12::23:43] saizai: it's English grammar with improverished ASL signs plus some custom stuff like '-ing'
[2009-08-02 12::23:57] saizai: plus a lot of initialisms for specific words
[2009-08-02 12::24:12] saizai: and some really stupid homonymy
[2009-08-02 12::24:38] clsn: Yeah, at first I learned some stuff like that, initialisms for "to be" verbs, "-ing", etc... Bleah.
[2009-08-02 12::24:39] saizai: clsn: yeah, that's true in the sense that they are in a lot of contact
[2009-08-02 12::24:45] saizai: and overlap in a lot of vocab
[2009-08-02 12::25:18] saizai: Deaf speakers will use SEE sometimes if they're wanting to express some very specific thing that doesn't map well to ASL's semantic space
[2009-08-02 12::25:33] saizai: especially more educated ones who're used to English precision
[2009-08-02 12::25:35] clsn: Mm... But I imagine the grammar not so much.  Yeah, that makes sense.
[2009-08-02 12::25:49] saizai: or ones who're raised oral
[2009-08-02 12::25:50] clsn: Much as they might fingerspell something obscure that doesn't have a well-known sign.
[2009-08-02 12::25:53] saizai: right
[2009-08-02 12::26:08] saizai: IMO, the precision level is just as great in both, they're just different spaces
[2009-08-02 12::26:27] saizai: it's actually one of my favorite things about it
[2009-08-02 12::26:46] saizai: that the mapping of what you can say how in what detail is so different in some ways
[2009-08-02 12::27:11] jimhenry2: saizai: examples?
[2009-08-02 12::27:19] clsn: I can believe that.  Believing otherwise, it seems to me, would impugn the status of ASL (or of English) as a "language" in some sense.
[2009-08-02 12::27:19] Broca: saizai: can you give an example of something that is succinct in ASL but verbose in English?
[2009-08-02 12::27:20] saizai: but still, SEE is pretty fucking stupid as a conlang, IMNSHO
[2009-08-02 12::27:24] clsn: (which is not something I'm willing to do).
[2009-08-02 12::27:41] clsn: Broca: That way around is pretty easy.  Even I gave a (faulty) example like 10 yrs ago on conlang.
[2009-08-02 12::27:45] saizai: Broca: sure. Anything visual, like explaining who's sitting where on a table
[2009-08-02 12::27:52] clsn: With the bicycles.
[2009-08-02 12::28:00] saizai: how people moved
[2009-08-02 12::28:09] saizai: expressions
[2009-08-02 12::28:20] saizai: some aspects of TAM
[2009-08-02 12::28:43] saizai: although for that, English resorts to just having a massive vocabulary
[2009-08-02 12::28:49] saizai: whereas ASL uses a lot of inflection
[2009-08-02 12::28:55] Broca: But are explanations like that linguistic, or gestural? Wouldn't such descriptions be understood by someone who didn't know ASL?
[2009-08-02 12::28:55] DN: saizai: Another holdup to development of any signed conlang is the inability to easily document it.  There doesn't seem to be any good way of writing sign "phonologies", except maybe SignWriting which requires custom fonts.  The only other alternative I know about is HamNoSys.  I'm open to suggestions if someone knows of others, but I'd like to work within some type of generally accepted standard.
[2009-08-02 12::28:57] clsn: My theory on that is that language, of course, models the world. The world is n-dimensional,  with n>3.  Figure n=4, for simplicity.
[2009-08-02 12::29:11] jimhenry2: clsn: had a conversation about that with my aunt who works for the atlanta school for the deaf, about how some parents won't learn sign or encourage/allow  their deaf children to learn ASL because they don't want them to be perceived as crippled .... i.e. ASL is perceived as not a real / full language, like a substandard dialect or pidgin...?
[2009-08-02 12::29:37] saizai: DN: have you seen David Peterson's SLIPA?
[2009-08-02 12::29:51] clsn: Speech is maybe 2D: you have the flow of time and the modulation of the sound.  Signed languages have a little chunk of 3-space to use.  There is less "compression" to squeeze the concepts into tyhe encoding.
[2009-08-02 12::29:54] saizai: SignWriting is ASL-specific
[2009-08-02 12::30:00] saizai: IIRC
[2009-08-02 12::30:13] clsn: jimhenry2: I said such an implication was not something *I* would want to do. Doesn't mean other people aren't doing it. :)
[2009-08-02 12::30:16] Broca: jimhenry2: it was very common, especially in earlier times, to think of signing as non-language.
[2009-08-02 12::30:16] saizai: I don't know other signed languages, so dunno how much so
[2009-08-02 12::30:25] clsn: Oh.  I didn't say that.  But I was going to,
[2009-08-02 12::30:49] saizai: clsn: I think language models the *semantic* world, which is rather disjoint from the meatspace one
[2009-08-02 12::30:52] Broca: jimhenry2: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manualism_and_oralism
[2009-08-02 12::31:10] clsn: Signing that was not an exact coding of English or whatever base language was thought of as just gestures.
[2009-08-02 12::31:17] saizai: yeah, that's a huge argument that's lasted since Bell
[2009-08-02 12::31:21] jimhenry2: clsn: didn't mean to imply that you were
[2009-08-02 12::31:29] saizai: or since the Abbé really
[2009-08-02 12::31:41] DN: saizai: I think I've seen SLIPA before, but it would have been a long time ago so It's best to take another look.
[2009-08-02 12::31:43] saizai: trend is towards manualism
[2009-08-02 12::31:52] clsn: saizai: Fair distinction.  But the semantic world is at least as complex and multidimensional as the physical one (since in a way it includes it)
[2009-08-02 12::31:52] clsn: jimhenry2: I know.  It's okay.
[2009-08-02 12::32:02] saizai: clsn: oh hell yes
[2009-08-02 12::32:18] saizai: I think it'd be interesting to build a conlang on that
[2009-08-02 12::32:27] saizai: that's actually partially why I'm interested in nonlinear writing systems
[2009-08-02 12::32:54] saizai: I think they can express ideas in a way that is in some sense "closer" in representational form to their actual (semantic) form
[2009-08-02 12::33:39] clsn: Yeah.  So it seems to me that signed languages can involve less dimensional compression, which gives them a certain advantage.  Not to mention a better shot at cultural neutrality, since there are gestures almost everyone understands.
[2009-08-02 12::34:56] saizai: jimhenry2: FWIW, ASL is still perceived by many people in the hearing world - even in speech therapy - as a sort of impediment to oralism. That deaf kids need to learn how to talk & read lips to get by, and that learning ASL would compete with learning English. It's bullshit of course - it's more important to be *linguistic* first  - but ya can't expect scared parents to know that
[2009-08-02 12::35:18] clsn: Geoffrey Sampson mentions a pasigraphy (I think) in his book on writing systems.  Quite non-linear.  A stylized type of art/drawing really.
[2009-08-02 12::35:18] clsn: Did you see it?
[2009-08-02 12::35:18] AdamFerguson: To me, sign language is like reading a picture. If that makes any sense. I use it regularl.
[2009-08-02 12::35:18] MalfermitaKodo: reading a picture?
[2009-08-02 12::35:18] AdamFerguson: I have to think of how to explain what I mean.
[2009-08-02 12::35:28] saizai: clsn: nope, link?
[2009-08-02 12::35:58] saizai: my perception of ASL is more kinesthetic than visual, oddly
[2009-08-02 12::36:08] saizai: my visual processing ability is pretty poor
[2009-08-02 12::36:31] clsn: I'm trying to see if the image is someplace online for you.  It sounds like exactly the sort of thing you're thinking about.
[2009-08-02 12::36:40] saizai: clsn: actually gestures are surprisingly variant. Ever read Edward T Hall et al?
[2009-08-02 12::37:33] jimhenry2: clsn and saizai: yes, it seems that both signed languages and purely written conlangs can be more iconic, more often, more universally than spoken languages can be with onomatapoeia and other sound-symbolism.
[2009-08-02 12::37:59] AdamFerguson: ASL does include everything that English does, just differently.
[2009-08-02 12::38:33] jimhenry2: AdamFerguson: do you mean ASL has all the same grammatical categories as English, or that it equally expressive, or what?
[2009-08-02 12::38:34] saizai: jimhenry2: I like to call 'em more *translucent*
[2009-08-02 12::38:45] AdamFerguson: Equally expressive.
[2009-08-02 12::38:49] clsn: Can't find my copy of the book, grr.  still checking.
[2009-08-02 12::38:59] jimhenry2: "translucent" is good
[2009-08-02 12::39:06] clsn: saizai: Edward T Hall?  Name is unamiliar.
[2009-08-02 12::39:06] saizai: e.g. the ASL sign TOOTH is iconic; TREE is translucent; and HOME is arbitrary
[2009-08-02 12::39:06] AdamFerguson: I've had people ask me why I am learning such a limited language and I was like ummm, I can still talk philosophy while signing.
[2009-08-02 12::39:33] AdamFerguson: sai: exactly.
[2009-08-02 12::39:46] saizai: clsn: he wrote stuff about cultural perceptions and variances about space, time, etc. And gestures, iirc
[2009-08-02 12::39:55] B-rat: translucent meaning what exactly?
[2009-08-02 12::39:57] saizai: very interesting stuff, I highly recommend just reading all of it
[2009-08-02 12::40:04] saizai: meaning, you get it once you know
[2009-08-02 12::40:11] saizai: and it becomes something you see as iconic
[2009-08-02 12::40:18] saizai: but before that, you have a shit chance of guessing :p
[2009-08-02 12::40:51] clsn: It's in this book: http://www.google.com/books?id=tVcdNRvwoDkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=geoffrey+Sampson#v=onepage&q=&f=false not sure the relevant pages are included in the preview.
[2009-08-02 12::40:52] saizai: Bliss had the fallacy that translucent = iconic
[2009-08-02 12::40:54] jimhenry2: saizai: maybe analogous to the distinction between recognizability vs. mnemonicity for a posteriori auxlang/engelang vocab design?
[2009-08-02 12::41:06] saizai: 'cause he knew what they were so it seemed obvious to him that everyone would
[2009-08-02 12::41:24] saizai: jimhenry2: yeah, that's pretty close I'd say
[2009-08-02 12::41:25] clsn: saizai: I call coinings like that "hindsight words".  They make PERFECT sense in hindsight.
[2009-08-02 12::41:47] saizai: hee
[2009-08-02 12::42:06] clsn: We developed the term in the Klingon community as people coined compounds.  It's hard to see the flaws in your suggestions, because they are absolutely obvious once you aleady know what they mean.
[2009-08-02 12::42:19] saizai: ASL also has an extra layer of classifier regularity and such
[2009-08-02 12::42:49] saizai: so even totally novel signs are understandable to some degree, IFF they obey the very hard to specify rules
[2009-08-02 12::43:21] jimhenry2: clsn: there was a thread on CONLANG some time ago about degrees of transparency vs. idiomaticity of compounds...
[2009-08-02 12::43:30] saizai: that part I think is probably hard to create in a conlang without it being stiff
[2009-08-02 12::44:40] AdamFerguson: What is a transparency?
[2009-08-02 12::44:40] clsn: saizai: It's on p.28, which is not re-created in the scan well.  Argh!  But I may have more info to find it now.
[2009-08-02 12::44:40] AdamFerguson: What?
[2009-08-02 12::44:41] AdamFerguson: Page of what?
[2009-08-02 12::45:10] saizai: clsn: it's hiding p 18-60 for me
[2009-08-02 12::45:19] saizai: AdamFerguson: see his link above
[2009-08-02 12::45:26] clsn: Got it.
[2009-08-02 12::45:39] clsn: 
      http://citym.org/blog/archives/2006/05/
    
[2009-08-02 12::46:04] clsn: They even have Sampson's explanation so you don't have to listen to mine.
[2009-08-02 12::46:26] saizai: clsn: that's very neat
[2009-08-02 12::46:35] jimhenry2: clsn: re idiomaticity vs transparency of compounds, see here http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0511D&L=CONLANG&T=0&F=&S=&P=721 and the next message, but the thread started rather earlier
[2009-08-02 12::47:09] clsn: OK...
[2009-08-02 12::47:25] clsn: Yeah... It's in a way comparable to math notation.  Not everyone reads math notation the same, with the same words, but it means the same thing,.
[2009-08-02 12::47:55] clsn: The letter doesn't represent a particular linguistic construction; it could be read with many different sentences in English or in Yukaghir.  But they mean the same thing
[2009-08-02 12::52:06] saizai: ObCL: how do you tell when you're calquing something, other than by knowing counterexamples?
[2009-08-02 12::52:11] saizai: is this even possible?
[2009-08-02 12::52:29] clsn: Something with that kind of universality and expressiveness... That's what Bliss was aiming for, I think.  And it would be really neat if we had something like that.
[2009-08-02 12::52:52] saizai: clsn: you may want to read the above-linked pdf ;)
[2009-08-02 12::53:42] saizai: it's such an admirable goal, but... it seems like it'd require everyone to have the same mind
[2009-08-02 12::53:44] jimhenry2: saizai: if you create a compound which is not isomorphic to any compound in a natlang you know, but it turns out to be ANADEW isomorphic to a compound in a natlang you don't know, is that actually a calque?
[2009-08-02 12::54:07] saizai: jimhenry2: iunno, is it? :p
[2009-08-02 12::54:44] clsn: Which pdf?  http://conference.conlang.org/lcc3/posters/Milan_Randic-Nobel_1.pdf ?
[2009-08-02 12::54:49] saizai: clsn: yes
[2009-08-02 12::55:13] jimhenry2: I think of "calque" as a term describing the origin of a word... if two natlangs independently invent the idea of expressing concept X with a compound of roots for compounds Y and Z, then they aren't calquing each other.  ditto if a conlanger independently comes up with X=Y+Z without knowing that Somewhereistanian does the same thing.
[2009-08-02 12::55:14] saizai: jimhenry2: this question of how to tell the difference between universals by happenstance and universals by ... some sort of necessity is interesting to me
[2009-08-02 12::55:16] MalfermitaKodo: what is calque?
[2009-08-02 12::55:48] jimhenry2: MalfermitaKodo: a compound that has the same structure as a compound in the source language
[2009-08-02 12::55:59] saizai: MalfermitaKodo: usually it's used to say someone's done a trivial modification of an extant language, usually their L1, usually without realizing it
[2009-08-02 12::56:10] saizai: sometimes just a word, sometimes a whole conlang
[2009-08-02 12::56:18] saizai: most folks' first conlang is one :p
[2009-08-02 12::56:19] jimhenry2: e.g. early Esperanto had a calque "elrigardi" from German "aufsehen", which was later replaced by a new root word "aspekti" (to seem)
[2009-08-02 12::57:02] » gwalla-afk is now known as gwalla.
[2009-08-02 12::57:31] saizai: jimhenry2: right. What about independently inventing the idea of (simple case) ergativity?
[2009-08-02 12::57:51] saizai: or more to the point, how do you figure out what you *could* invent?
[2009-08-02 12::58:10] saizai: it seems that most of the time, you only know what parameters to tweak because you've seen different versions of it
[2009-08-02 13::00:00] jimhenry2: saizai: is calque = relex?  I thought it referred specifically to a type of compound words.  mnemonic I read: "loanword is a calque, calque is a loanword"
[2009-08-02 13::00:01] gwalla: my first conlang was a mutant Latin
[2009-08-02 13::00:01] MalfermitaKodo: saizai: was that directed at me?
[2009-08-02 13::00:03] jimhenry2: saizai: I think that is isomorphic to the question "what is creativity and how does it work?".... hofstadter, again, has a lot to say about that esp. in "metamagical themas"
[2009-08-02 13::00:03] jimhenry2: and I have to go get ready for church
[2009-08-02 13::00:03] jimhenry2: talk to y'all later
[2009-08-02 13::00:37] saizai: MalfermitaKodo: some of it was :p
[2009-08-02 13::00:46] MalfermitaKodo: I guess that I was lucky to start conlanging when I still took English and French then
[2009-08-02 13::00:56] Rakko: not quite... relexification I think involves more grammar than compounding
[2009-08-02 13::01:16] Rakko: and mapping words with the same semantic spaces
[2009-08-02 13::01:20] saizai: jimhenry2: good point
[2009-08-02 13::01:31] saizai: and, enjoy your churching
[2009-08-02 13::01:54] MalfermitaKodo: hf, jimhenry2
[2009-08-02 13::03:14] Rakko: bye
[2009-08-02 13::03:28] » Arthaey joined the chat room.
[2009-08-02 13::03:28] » Arthaey was granted voice by ChanServ.
[2009-08-02 13::03:36] saizai: howdy, Arthaey 
[2009-08-02 13::03:41] saizai: ya just missed jim
[2009-08-02 13::03:43] Rakko: hi Arthaey
[2009-08-02 13::03:43] MalfermitaKodo: 'rala'isa is the most obvious calque I found in rejistanian
[2009-08-02 13::04:31] saizai: what of?
[2009-08-02 13::07:18] Arthaey: hi all
[2009-08-02 13::07:18] MalfermitaKodo: it works like German 'gegangen werden'
[2009-08-02 13::07:18] MalfermitaKodo: hi Arthaey
[2009-08-02 13::07:19] Arthaey: jimhenry2 is not really here, then?
[2009-08-02 13::07:27] Rakko: no, he just left
[2009-08-02 13::07:28] Arthaey: okies
[2009-08-02 13::07:31] halyihev: And apparently when he did, all got very quiet!
[2009-08-02 13::07:31] MalfermitaKodo: hehe
[2009-08-02 13::07:31] halyihev: (Yes, I am still lurking around out here.  Had nothing to contribute so far. :( )
[2009-08-02 13::07:31] Arthaey: saizai: are official chat logs of this session being kept by LCS?
[2009-08-02 13::07:31] Rakko: that's because almost all chatters in this channel were just instances of him
[2009-08-02 13::07:31] clsn: saizai: reading the pdf.... A lot of it is oh-so-arbitrary, but there are some interesting bits so far.  Still, this is the tried and true problem of a thousand attempted conlangs.
[2009-08-02 13::07:34] clsn: Just name everything by its definition!  How simple.  I remember there was someone with a conlang where "pea" was "small round green food" I think.  "But isn't that a grape"? I asked.
[2009-08-02 13::07:37] Meeply: I am just being quiet because you are all so interesting. And I'm so busy.
[2009-08-02 13::08:00] clsn: You can drive yourself nuts with this kind of thinking, because there's no really good answer.
[2009-08-02 13::08:02] saizai: halyihev: oh please, you're just shy about it ;)
[2009-08-02 13::08:32] MalfermitaKodo: clsn: sounds like KHMG
[2009-08-02 13::08:36] clsn: KHMG?
[2009-08-02 13::08:43] halyihev: Shy is not something I'm usually accused of being.
[2009-08-02 13::08:50] saizai: Arthaey: iunno. I was thinking of it. I keep logs by default for my own use
[2009-08-02 13::08:56] MalfermitaKodo: Kenshuite He Mo Gie, my secondary conlang
[2009-08-02 13::09:02] saizai: any objections to my posting a log of this?
[2009-08-02 13::09:15] clsn: It shows up in Ro also, as I recall.  And aUI, etc.
[2009-08-02 13::09:16] clsn: Oh.
[2009-08-02 13::09:18] saizai: clsn: he's a true idealist
[2009-08-02 13::09:28] saizai: and a very obvious calque of English
[2009-08-02 13::09:29] Rakko: Is anyone else having trouble with http://wwwtios.cs.utwente.nl/traduk/EO-EN/Translate/ ? I type in a word and hit enter, but nothing happens.
[2009-08-02 13::10:00] saizai: naming by definition is bloody impossible
[2009-08-02 13::10:07] saizai: goddamn tricksy definitions ;)
[2009-08-02 13::10:14] clsn: It's a calque, and his combinations are neither obvious nor even consistent.
[2009-08-02 13::10:28] clsn: BUT, some of them kinda work.  And maybe could become something workable.
[2009-08-02 13::10:28] clsn: saizai: agreed.
[2009-08-02 13::10:51] halyihev: @Rakko: Something happens for me, but it cannot find any word in the vortaro.
[2009-08-02 13::11:17] Rakko: hmm
[2009-08-02 13::11:17] halyihev: Mi pensas ke ĝi ne funkcias.
[2009-08-02 13::12:14] MalfermitaKodo: saizai: well, yes, but I have rather few possible syllables and thus have to by economically
[2009-08-02 13::12:25] saizai: halyihev: FYI, IRC convention is not to use @
[2009-08-02 13::12:51] saizai: MalfermitaKodo: huh?
[2009-08-02 13::12:56] halyihev: Ah.  Sorry, I very rarely use IRC to be honest.
[2009-08-02 13::13:06] saizai: I think most people here don't
[2009-08-02 13::13:15] halyihev: I think this is my third time ever.
[2009-08-02 13::13:15] Rakko: perhaps, but using @ certainly shouldn't make things unclear
[2009-08-02 13::13:16] Rakko: and I've seen @nick on IRC anyway
[2009-08-02 13::13:27] jimhenry2: Arthaey:  just went to go shower & get dressed, have a few minutes before I actually have to drive off
[2009-08-02 13::14:05] Rakko: Now Twitter confuses me... all those #keyword things automatically make me think they're talking about IRC channels
[2009-08-02 13::14:05] Rakko: or tags or whatever they are
[2009-08-02 13::14:29] MalfermitaKodo: saizai: as reason why pea would be RoundGreenFood
[2009-08-02 13::14:36] saizai: Rakko: heh, me too
[2009-08-02 13::14:43] Rakko: especially when tweets are quoted in not-twitter contexts (case in point: #amazonfail)
[2009-08-02 13::15:19] saizai: MalfermitaKodo: ah, right. This is I think similar to 'failure to disconfirm a hypothesis' fallacy
[2009-08-02 13::15:33] DN: (Back now.  Had to go take care of something outside before it rains again.  Thanks to 4WD it went smoothly)
[2009-08-02 13::15:35] saizai: people only look to say 'does this look plausible' 
[2009-08-02 13::15:41] saizai: not 'is this the only thing that looks plausible'
[2009-08-02 13::15:48] saizai: or 'what else might that mean'
[2009-08-02 13::16:15] jimhenry2: clsn: sounds like Andrew Nowicki's Ygyde... search AUXLANG list archives for "noun foam food" :)
[2009-08-02 13::16:47] MalfermitaKodo: saizai: well,  I would disambiguate a bit more against this confusion
[2009-08-02 13::16:47] DN: jimhenry2: No, no, not that.  Not another discussion of "foam food?"
[2009-08-02 13::17:02] Rakko: mmm
[2009-08-02 13::17:02] jimhenry2: the "round green food" reminded me of it
[2009-08-02 13::17:17] saizai: MalfermitaKodo: that's an unending quest, that search for ultimate diambiguation :)
[2009-08-02 13::17:29] jimhenry2: yay cheese puffs
[2009-08-02 13::17:33] clsn: Geez, sounds like it was a rough thread! :)
[2009-08-02 13::17:33] jimhenry2: (foam food, that is, not green food)
[2009-08-02 13::17:52] Arthaey: clsn: indeed it was, IIRC :)
[2009-08-02 13::17:53] clsn: Yeah, increased disambiguation leads to increased verbosity, with no limit in sight.
[2009-08-02 13::17:54] DN: saizai: Could be Soylent Green?
[2009-08-02 13::18:53] clsn: You wind up back at figuring out what your criteria are for splitting up the world.  How you avoid the Ugly Duckling Theorem.
[2009-08-02 13::19:04] saizai: wassat?
[2009-08-02 13::19:36] Arthaey: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugly_duckling_theorem :)
[2009-08-02 13::20:02] clsn: Yeah, I wrote up a page on WP about it and managed to NOT get it deleted.
[2009-08-02 13::20:02] clsn: Well, the second time, anyway. :)
[2009-08-02 13::20:32] Rakko: gj
[2009-08-02 13::20:45] saizai: clsn: hee, neat name
[2009-08-02 13::20:53] clsn: Basically, all categorization is in some sense arbitrary, or else everything is the same.
[2009-08-02 13::21:55] clsn: You have to work out what your biases are going to be, what sorts of features you will consider important.
[2009-08-02 13::22:15] saizai: nods
[2009-08-02 13::22:51] saizai: that's a hard thing to figure out
[2009-08-02 13::23:13] clsn: You bet.  And once you have, sorting the universe into that categorization is by no means trivial.
[2009-08-02 13::23:27] clsn: Deciding which possible analyses take precedence, etc.
[2009-08-02 13::23:53] saizai: poor bastard Wilkins
[2009-08-02 13::24:27] clsn: Yah.
[2009-08-02 13::25:36] saizai: the logical people have it just as bad of course ;)
[2009-08-02 13::25:59] clsn: The problem Arika had with Wilkins' language crops up in lots of other conlangs too.  Anything that tries to start from a limited set of root concepts.
[2009-08-02 13::26:02] MalfermitaKodo: well, clsn, KHMG is intended to be very biased
[2009-08-02 13::26:08] saizai: it's kinda surprising to me how many people seem to think that you *can* be totally specific
[2009-08-02 13::26:28] saizai: it's literally magical thinking
[2009-08-02 13::26:45] MalfermitaKodo: so it makes sense to do it in a way which shows much of the underlying cultural assumptions
[2009-08-02 13::27:13] clsn: See, taking that bias and being up-front about it and embracing it and running with it... That's a wonderful thing.
[2009-08-02 13::27:32] jimhenry2: a similar but not identical methodology is to start out being lexically minimalist, for ease of learning, but plan to grow the root vocabulary over time as needed for power of expressivity
[2009-08-02 13::27:33] clsn: Pretending it isn't there and you're representing everything completely obviously and intuitively is just asking for it.
[2009-08-02 13::27:57] MalfermitaKodo: heh
[2009-08-02 13::28:12] MalfermitaKodo: I am not that naive ;)
[2009-08-02 13::28:13] clsn: You have to recognize and accept a certain amount of arbitrariness.  Either LOTS of it and revel in it, or at least *some* and do what you can about it.
[2009-08-02 13::28:28] jimhenry2: e.g. esperanto started out with ~900 root words IIRC, thus the unsatisfactory early compounds like "elrigardi" which were replaced by new roots over time
[2009-08-02 13::28:28] clsn: Lojban can't go the former route, so tries to go the latter,.
[2009-08-02 13::29:18] clsn: And some of Esperanto's current vocabulary of compounds can still be considered biased, I would think.  Don't ask me for examples right now; I'm sure they're there--no really, they are.
[2009-08-02 13::29:32] clsn: "eldoni" for "publish" maybe?
[2009-08-02 13::30:12] jimhenry2: clsn: yes, eldoni is a good example
[2009-08-02 13::30:14] jimhenry2: clsn re: Lojban: i.e. the attitude "minimize synactic ambiguity, but accept that semantic ambiguity can't be done away with"?
[2009-08-02 13::30:31] jimhenry2: now I really have to actually drive away
[2009-08-02 13::30:32] jimhenry2: bye
[2009-08-02 13::30:50] DN: jimhenry2: čau
[2009-08-02 13::30:58] MalfermitaKodo: CU
[2009-08-02 13::31:00] MalfermitaKodo: va'il veka!
[2009-08-02 13::31:05] clsn: Yeah, Lojban never claimed to conquer semantic ambiguity.
[2009-08-02 13::34:31] gwalla: bye jim
[2009-08-02 13::36:34] MalfermitaKodo: BTW: seeing that this chat stagnates atm pretty much. have those of you, who did conscripts used the same punctuation characters as English does or do you use different ones?
[2009-08-02 13::37:13] cbecker: didn't
[2009-08-02 13::37:26] saizai: didn't, but that's cheating
[2009-08-02 13::37:52] cbecker: though I don't have a colon or a semicolon
[2009-08-02 13::37:52] MalfermitaKodo: ie: symbol x is a full stop, symbol y a comma
[2009-08-02 13::37:53] cbecker: also for reasons of evilness sentences are written as one string, like in thai
[2009-08-02 13::37:53] MalfermitaKodo: and have a 1 to 1 relation between them
[2009-08-02 13::37:53] cbecker: comma is indicated by a space
[2009-08-02 13::37:53] MalfermitaKodo: ooooooooh
[2009-08-02 13::38:15] » jimhenry joined the chat room.
[2009-08-02 13::38:16] » jimhenry was granted voice by ChanServ.
[2009-08-02 13::38:20] DN: MalfermitaKodo: Punctuation varies in my languages.  SASXSEK is similiar to Western languages in some ways, but unique in others.  Most noteable for S:S: would be that a sentence always ends with a period so note question exclamation marks.
[2009-08-02 13::38:56] MalfermitaKodo: heh, that is like Rejistanian :)
[2009-08-02 13::39:11] » linquenolloke left the chat room.
[2009-08-02 13::39:12] Broca: My conscript has a vertical wavy thing for period, three vertical wavy things for exclamation point, and two vertical wavy things for something in between, the equivalent of which does not exist in Latin typography.
[2009-08-02 13::39:34] saizai: hee
[2009-08-02 13::39:42] saizai: neat concept
[2009-08-02 13::39:53] MalfermitaKodo: indeed!
[2009-08-02 13::39:54] Broca: Thanks.
[2009-08-02 13::40:24] saizai: Japanese ~yo# is something I used to think meant !
[2009-08-02 13::40:46] saizai: but evidently that's just implied; it's more a sort of marker for 'this is new to you'
[2009-08-02 13::41:04] clsn: Somewhere someone look up my explanation of the Masoretic cantillations from the conlang list.
[2009-08-02 13::41:08] clsn: I know someone put it on the web.
[2009-08-02 13::42:09] saizai: the who?
[2009-08-02 13::42:23] DN: MalfermitaKodo: Deini's script has it's own punctuation symbols but there is a standard for Romanization.  A period is used where Deini would use the "end of sentence marker" (a small centered "x") for example.  It has question (small circle) and exclamation markers (two small circles aligned vertically)but they are placed at the start of the sentence as an indicator to change intonation of...
[2009-08-02 13::42:23] DN: ...what follows.
[2009-08-02 13::42:43] MalfermitaKodo: ah
[2009-08-02 13::42:59] clsn: The Hebrew Bible is traditionally annotated with a system of cantillations, which serve as punctuation and/or musical notation.
[2009-08-02 13::43:13] clsn: Allows for very complex and fine-grained division of the phrases.
[2009-08-02 13::44:06] clsn: I wrote an explanation of it to the conlang list in the 90s or something, it was on someone's website.  For gory details, someone named Helmut Richter has an excellent description.
[2009-08-02 13::44:06] MalfermitaKodo: I have two systems for writing punctuation: ReSCII (which is a mapping of the rejistanian alphabet into ASCII) and the user-friendly one
[2009-08-02 13::45:46] Broca: clsn: are the cantillations used in the talmud? Would it ever occur to someone to use them in secular texts?
[2009-08-02 13::45:47] cbecker: actually I haven't thought about how to represent my conlang more ascii-friendly
[2009-08-02 13::46:00] cbecker: I guess I could use aa ee ii oo for the long vowels
[2009-08-02 13::46:06] clsn: discovers he is quoted on islamicworld.com in a book review. http://www.islamicworld.com/quran-12527-3438052180-Biblia_Hebraica_Stuttgartensia.html
[2009-08-02 13::46:11] cbecker: or a: e: i: o:
[2009-08-02 13::46:34] cbecker: (ū doesn't exist IMC in fact)
[2009-08-02 13::46:48] DN: Deini script has two Romizations as well.  One uses diacritics and extended Latinsymbols like eng <ŋ>, the other stays withing the ASCII range so it uses diagraphs instead.
[2009-08-02 13::47:05] clsn: Broca: There was once a version of the Talmud, apparently, which *did* put cantillations on the mishnah, I think.  And there are all kinds of old melodies people use when chanting/reading/studying the Talmud.
[2009-08-02 13::47:40] clsn: And I once saw a prayer-book explaining the prosodic relationships among words in liturgy by describing them in terms of cantillations.
[2009-08-02 13::47:42] MalfermitaKodo: an example: Hangila Sede said: "A dream is only a dream until it is reached. After that, it becomes something trivial"
[2009-08-02 13::47:50] clsn: And I myself have recently been playing around with putting cantillations onto such things as the Grace After Meals.
[2009-08-02 13::48:41] MalfermitaKodo: in 'normal' writing this would be: Hank~hila Sede mi'la'visko "Tekneluru mi'aru mi aji, il'sidekhir'ra mi kia. Mi'ki'vasu kynha'het kirki."
[2009-08-02 13::49:13] cbecker: btw, MalfermitaKodo, what is the apostrophe used for in rejistanian?
[2009-08-02 13::49:39] MalfermitaKodo: cbecker: it seperates the suffixes and prefixes from each other and the stem
[2009-08-02 13::49:44] cbecker: ah
[2009-08-02 13::49:55] cbecker: but I guess that's only a written convention, yes?
[2009-08-02 13::50:20] MalfermitaKodo: it affects pronunciation only indirectly
[2009-08-02 13::50:49] MalfermitaKodo: in ReSCII: HangWila Sede mi'la'visko {Tekneluru mi'aru mi aji ,il'sidekhir'ra mi. kia: Mi'ki'vasu kynha'het kirki:}
[2009-08-02 13::51:47] gwalla: Volde punctuation actually connects to adjacent words. It's one of the few things I've decided about that particular sketch.
[2009-08-02 13::51:47] MalfermitaKodo: it is not pronounced as such but can shift the stress
[2009-08-02 13::53:41] MalfermitaKodo: oh... I forgot to mention that the tilde is only used when I can't use the real "helku", ie: when I can't write "k͜h"
[2009-08-02 13::55:23] » jimhenry2 left the chat room.
[2009-08-02 13::57:18] saizai: so, meta: how often shall we do this?
[2009-08-02 13::57:48] Rakko: often!
[2009-08-02 13::57:57] clsn: Weekly?
[2009-08-02 13::58:21] saizai: is mainly concerned for burnout
[2009-08-02 13::59:15] halyihev: I thought this was initially discussed as a monthly option, wasn't it?
[2009-08-02 13::59:28] halyihev: First Sunday of the month or something?
[2009-08-02 13::59:33] saizai: yeah, something like that
[2009-08-02 13::59:50] saizai: but, better to get a sense while we're here
[2009-08-02 13::59:55] saizai: shrugs
[2009-08-02 14::00:06] Rakko: monthly or 2-weekly maybe
[2009-08-02 14::00:15] saizai: I'd like to make this something nice n' regular
[2009-08-02 14::00:37] saizai: that we can scale up later if there's enough demand :p
[2009-08-02 14::01:16] DN: saizai: I just happened to be online at the time.  Generally daytimes don't work well for me.  I think it would be cool to keep the channel available 24/7 but a monthly oranganizaed meeting sounds good.
[2009-08-02 14::01:16] cbecker: I'm off to bed now. I'm leaving this open for logging however.
[2009-08-02 14::01:29] saizai: DN: there are two extant 24/7 channels
[2009-08-02 14::01:40] saizai: not much point splitting 'em
[2009-08-02 14::01:46] Rakko: guten abend
[2009-08-02 14::01:54] saizai: g'night carsten
[2009-08-02 14::02:13] DN: I should add that it would be nice if there were some sort of video or audio conference going on periodically.
[2009-08-02 14::02:16] halyihev: How often is anyone on outside of this sort of regular chat?
[2009-08-02 14::02:27] cbecker: if anyone has a question to me, mail it to carbeck@gmail.com, or Naranoieati on AIM/Skype, or 283014390 on ICQ.
[2009-08-02 14::02:30] cbecker: night
[2009-08-02 14::02:33] » cbecker is now known as cbecker[sleep].
[2009-08-02 14::02:38] saizai: DN: we tried that on skype. Over a few people, it got really problematic
[2009-08-02 14::02:49] saizai: quality was just crap
[2009-08-02 14::03:00] halyihev: Zónva (G'nite) Carsten
[2009-08-02 14::03:09] saizai: but a phone-in thing might work better
[2009-08-02 14::03:38] saizai: video'd be worse in that regard; I've never seen one that'll handle this many people
[2009-08-02 14::04:23] saizai: I'm on IM 24/7; rarely on IRC
[2009-08-02 14::05:19] Meeply: Ventrilo seems to stand up well with a crowd.
[2009-08-02 14::05:19] DN: saizai: Skype is what I was thinking about using.  I'd never tried conferencing with it.  Actually I haven't really used it much.  I have it mainly as an incoming line since I don't like giving everyone my mobile.
[2009-08-02 14::05:20] Broca: saizai: Mumble works for us Lojbananas.
[2009-08-02 14::05:20] DN: saizai: Phone in teleconferencing bridges work great but co$t.
[2009-08-02 14::05:33] saizai: Mumble =?
[2009-08-02 14::05:45] saizai: DN: not necessarily; there are some free ones
[2009-08-02 14::06:03] saizai: and google voice would do it too; I'm pending an invite
[2009-08-02 14::06:11] Broca: saizai: http://mumble.sourceforge.net/
[2009-08-02 14::08:08] saizai: Broca: does it bridge to Skype?
[2009-08-02 14::08:21] DN: saizai: By recommending audio or video, I'm mainly thinking about the ability to demonstrate the spoken versions of our languages rather than just writing them.  I suppose someone could host a Netmeeting too but I'm not sure that's avilable to non-Windless users.
[2009-08-02 14::08:41] saizai: only other one I know is something-project
[2009-08-02 14::08:47] saizai: I forget the name
[2009-08-02 14::08:55] saizai: but yeah, voice is good
[2009-08-02 14::08:59] Broca: I don't think that's possible, Skype being proprietary and all.
[2009-08-02 14::09:00] » zaintaom joined the chat room.
[2009-08-02 14::09:00] » zaintaom was granted voice by ChanServ.
[2009-08-02 14::09:00] saizai: just a technical hassle
[2009-08-02 14::09:12] saizai: nah, they recently opened up to voip
[2009-08-02 14::09:21] saizai: gizmo, that's it
[2009-08-02 14::09:25] saizai: gizmo has a skype bridge
[2009-08-02 14::09:35] halyihev: Another free option for video conferencing is Dimdim.
[2009-08-02 14::09:43] saizai: max #?
[2009-08-02 14::10:17] halyihev: On Dimdim?  20 people, according to their start page.
[2009-08-02 14::10:33] halyihev: Might be pushing it with this group, depending on who did and didn't join.
[2009-08-02 14::11:36] saizai: let's consider it an upgrade option from voice perhaps?
[2009-08-02 14::11:53] » zaintaom left the chat room.
[2009-08-02 14::12:04] saizai: fwiw, shared whiteboard was pretty useful for us talking about nonlinear langauge
[2009-08-02 14::12:12] saizai: we used skribblr iirc
[2009-08-02 14::12:17] saizai: or somesuch
[2009-08-02 14::12:23] saizai: I'd have to check the logs
[2009-08-02 14::18:01] saizai: ohand, as usual, I'd appreciate feedback on this; just /msg or email me 
[2009-08-02 14::18:16] saizai: and suggestions for next time's topic
[2009-08-02 14::24:12] DN: čau todx
[2009-08-02 14::24:41] » DN left the chat room.
[2009-08-02 14::27:09] halyihev: Sashthálï ttólvá
[2009-08-02 14::27:09] » halyihev left the chat room.
[2009-08-02 14::27:14] » Meeply left the chat room.
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